Episode Summary

When it comes to building a career and even a life that you want, writing is a secret weapon. No one knows that better than Jeff Putnam—entrepreneur, author, and founder of Rugged Legacy Grooming Supply Co. In this episode of Self Publishing Insiders, Kevin Tumlinson interviews Jeff about the role writing has played in his career.

Episode Notes

Jeff Putnam, founder of Rugged Legacy Grooming Supply Co., chats with D2D’s Kevin Tumlinson about the importance of everyday writing and how developing writing skills can help propel your life and career.

Find Jeff and his work at ruggedlegacygrooming.com.

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Kevin Tumlinson  00:02

Hey, everybody, thank you for tuning in live, if you are live. If you’re listening to this on the podcast, you missed out on the really handsome guys, both bearded and masculine. Of course, our guest today, Jeff Putnam, far more muscularly developed than I am at this point, but only for now. I’ll be catching up, buddy. But welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us on Self-Publishing Insiders, man. I’m glad to have a chance to talk to you.

Jeff Putnam  00:30

Yeah, man, thanks for having me.

Kevin Tumlinson  00:32

Now, one of the reasons I wanted you on, and we’ve been kind of in communication for a while now, you are a self-published author. You kind of went a slightly different route than most of the folks we talked to went, in that you’re using tools like Gumroad, and you are kind of in control of the inventory and everything there. But you recently hit me up to kind of look over something that you have produced that is aimed at helping authors become pros at this stuff, helping them develop pro skills in terms of how they’re writing, copywriting, writing a novel even, so I wanted to bring you on air just talk about that kind of thing, because I know our audience is gonna be interested in it. So what why don’t you, let’s open and talk a little bit about that man. What prompted you to do that?

Jeff Putnam  01:19

Yeah, so I went the Gumroad route, which if people aren’t familiar with it, Gumroad is a seller’s platform much like Etsy, where you can sell really anything, from digital information products to physical products. You’re in control of the pricing, how much you want to sell. Obviously, you need to fulfill it yourself if you’re shipping physical items. But when I got into, like you do, because I’ll throw up my Grammarly Insights, you know last week, 139,000 words were checked. People were like, how do you write that much? Well one, this is my job. I’ve got more time to write than most people. Two, it’s all about having a schedule and a system that you can exploit the living crap out of to just write at will.

Kevin Tumlinson  02:19

Yeah. So you’re using Grammarly, and I’ve always liked Grammarly. I’ve started using Pro Writing Aid, which is very similar. But how are you managing it? Like, do you have a target you’re trying to hit each day?

Jeff Putnam  02:38

Yeah, so most of the people who follow me know I’m up at 3:30 in the morning. I go to the gym at 4. I come home, usually around 5:15. That’s when I’ll make my coffee, which I have now. Grab my pipe, my little pouch of tobacco, and my laptop, and I’ll head out to the patio. Light my tiki torches and just sit there on the patio. And I have a goal, no less than 1000 words by seven o’clock. It’s an hour and a half almost. If you can’t do 1000 words in an hour and a half, you know, you don’t have hands. And I just sit down and write, man. And one of my friends, he’s written 26 books. A guy named Adam Lane Smith. When I was first getting into the writing game, he told me, it doesn’t matter about the spelling, it doesn’t matter about the punctuation, it doesn’t matter about the coherency of what you’re writing. Just get in there and write. And in a couple of days, go back and fix it and polish it and edit it. And so I just sit down and I don’t care if it’s coherent. I don’t care if I’m repeating myself or whatever. You need the clay before you can make the bricks. And so that’s what I do. I sit down for 90 minutes, pound out 1000 words, whether they make sense or not. And I don’t worry about being coherent or consistent. I just need the content there for me to fix later.

Kevin Tumlinson  04:08

Now do you wait until you’ve got the entire manuscript before you edit? Or do you do any editing as you go?

Jeff Putnam  04:13

If I tried to edit as I go, I would never finish writing. I won’t, because that’s what held me, and what holds a lot of people back is perfectionism. They’re writing and oh, I misspelled that word. So what? Just keep going. Or, I didn’t phrase this the way I meant to. Well, you can type in a rephrase so you don’t forget. And that’s one thing. But going through and, oh, I didn’t say this in the right order, or I didn’t … Don’t worry about that. Just write it down, because you’ll lose your momentum if you try to stop an edit. If you try to stop and edit, you might get 250 words that look great, when you could have had 2000 to 2500 words written because you spent too much time trying to perfect it. Just get it written first.

Kevin Tumlinson  05:07

Yeah. So you aim for 1000. Do you ever get in like a zone and you just kind of blast through? What’s your upper limit?

Jeff Putnam  05:14

Yeah. When I was writing my books, like I wrote Empire Divided in 35 days. I wrote The Perimeter in 54 days. And I sat down with the goal of 1000 words a day. Now, some of those days, I’d sit down and I’d start writing. That morning, man, I just can’t get more than 500 words out of me. So I’ll go handle, you know, the kids’ homeschooling, whatever. And I’d go back and sit on my porch, and I’d pound out 3500 words. Or I’d be writing and I’d get into the 1000 mark in 35, 45 minutes. Well, I’m not stopping till seven anyway, when the kids have got to get up. So I just keep pounding. And wherever it stops, it stops.

Kevin Tumlinson  06:01

Do you, are you an outliner?

Jeff Putnam  06:02

I am and I am not. I love outlining …

Kevin Tumlinson  06:08

[inaudible] story, by the way. That’s why I’m prompting questions that have answers I want you to share, because I like your process.

Jeff Putnam  06:17

I like the outlining process because it builds the blueprint and the roadmap, right? All you really need to know is your starting point and your ending point. If you know the promise, and you can deliver the promise, you can build a map to get there. So if I’m writing fiction, I’ll write the ending. Right? If I’m, that’s the first thing I’ll do. And then the opening statement, the opening scene will probably get written last, after I’ve written you know, 90,000 words. Nonfiction, I take big things and I make them small. And then I take those small things, and I make them bigger on their own. So the big idea and the concept is the main topic. I break that down into 10 to 20 smaller problems. And then I extrapolate on those small problems like they are the whole problem. And those are your chapters.  

Kevin Tumlinson  07:21

There you go. Yeah, that’s a great way to organize that. I’ve always been terrible with outlines. So I’m always impressed by people who actually manage to do an outline.

Jeff Putnam  07:35

I mean, I never stick to the outline. But I make it and making it gets me started. And so I’m started, I’m working, and cool. I have a whole other idea that has nothing to do with what I wrote. But I’m gonna write it down anyway, because I’m not editing at this point anyway.

Kevin Tumlinson  07:52

How far afield do you get on those? Like, how close do you try to stick to the outline?

Jeff Putnam  08:00

Look, the program that I sent you to look over, that I’m sure we’ll be talking about here soon, was written by accident. Because I started off writing something else entirely. And then as I was writing, my ideas came, and I went, well this isn’t what I was gonna make. So let me just put this into another file, retitle this something else and just keep going with this. So sometimes, I sit down to write one thing, and I end up writing five different things. The outline is only there to serve as, I have a starting point. Where I go from there doesn’t matter.

Kevin Tumlinson  08:41

You at least have something, so you can’t …

Jeff Putnam  08:42  

I’ve got something and I can look at it and I can repackage it if need be.

Kevin Tumlinson  08:48

Very good. And does that happen pretty often?

Jeff Putnam  08:50

Every single time.

Kevin Tumlinson  08:54

So you’re the accidental writer.  

Jeff Putnam  08:55

Yeah. If I sit down to write a blog, which you guys can go to my website, it’s JeffPutnamAuthor.com. And you’ll see I’ve got maybe 20, 30 entries there. But none of those blog posts were written intentionally. They started off as, I was writing something else. And then my mind started doing that. You know, like the dog when he sees a squirrel. He just gets distracted. And it turned into something else.

Kevin Tumlinson  09:28

Yeah. That’s the best kind, man. Sort of freewriting basically.

Jeff Putnam  09:35

Oh, freewriting is amazing. It’s hard to do intentionally though. I can only do it accidentally.

Kevin Tumlinson  09:42

Yeah, that’s good, though. And you have a general direction. So that helps. But you brought up the program, let’s talk a little bit about that. Like, what are we calling it? What do you call it at this point?

Jeff Putnam  09:52

It’s Seven Secrets to Write Like a Pro. I wanted to give something to people that will smash every barrier that I had when I was trying to write for the first time. Because I’ll openly admit that my first book, Empire Divided, it is loaded with bad writing. I’m not changing it. It’s published, and it’ll forever be for sale. Because, you know, a lot of people like it. It’s got like 35, 38 reviews on Amazon, you know, four and a half stars, people love it. And I’ve gotten incredible feedback about it, I think I started a cultural movement with it, but that’s a whole different conversation. But everyone starts out writing and then they sit there and they stare at that blank page, and they go, I don’t know what to write. And they stop writing before they start writing. Or they, you know, they get that shiny object syndrome. I’m going to write this story, it’s going to be about this. And it’s going to have this, you know, mystery and sex and intrigue, and it’s going to be better than Bond. And they sit down and they tear it up for like, 12 hours straight. And then they fall off because they lose the story. And so, I have three books now that are in my folder here that I need to finish writing. I’ve got like eight chapters of each one written. But then I get sidetracked with other projects, or I get stuck on the story. And those have been in my bin for probably two years. And then as I was writing The Perimeter, and Empire Divided, both of them this year, I wrote back to back, I developed this system that started really paying off, where I could just write anything on demand. And it was good writing, it was copywriter level writing. So I wanted to package that and bring it to market for everybody that wants to break into the writing game, because the barriers to entry to writing are very small. But they still stop people in their tracks.

Kevin Tumlinson  12:11

What do you, why do you think that is? What barrier to entry prevents people from doing the actual writing?

Jeff Putnam  12:20

I think the biggest element is, most people call it writer’s block, but it’s actually writer’s anxiety. They’re worried about being judged on what they wrote. They’re worried that people will look at it, point, and laugh. They have imposter syndrome. Who am I to write, to be a writer? Who am I to write a book, you know? And one of my favorite quotes comes from Ernest Hemingway, because I always romanticized being a writer when I was a kid. Jack London, Ernest Hemingway, Herman Melville. They were like my muses as a kid where I just fantasized about being a writer. And it was, I’m going to be alone on a sailboat, drunk, with a typewriter and a machine gun, shooting at marlins while I write the great American novel, right? It was Hemingway all the way. But, you know, and people are probably gonna want to crucify me for saying this. But Hemingway is a really overblown writer. He just wrote stuff that would sell. He wrote copy in long form. And his trick was, the only thing you have to do is write one true statement. One true statement. If you don’t know anything to write, you don’t know what you’re going to write. Write one true statement, and then build on it.

Kevin Tumlinson  14:08

I like that a lot man, yeah.  

Jeff Putnam  14:10

And so now, whenever I’m sitting down, that’s the one thing I think of is, here’s the topic. You know, say it’s leadership. What’s the one true thing, the truest thing about leadership? It’s 100% a skill. Okay, so now I need to build on the fact that leadership is a skill. I break that down. And next thing you know, I’ve got a book about leadership.

Kevin Tumlinson  14:43

Now is that the process of evolution for everything you’ve written so far? Other than the accidental writing.

Jeff Putnam  14:53

Well, it’s the process that I follow to start writing everything. And then once I start writing, I would be a fool to ignore where the page wants to go. It sounds pretty woo woo, doesn’t it? It sounds kind of like New Age hippie stuff. But that’s what happens. I mean, you write. You know, the story will go where the story wants to go.

Kevin Tumlinson  15:18

Right. It is, it ends up being you telling you what the story is going to be. Like, some deeper part of you is explaining to a higher part of you, or a lower part of you maybe, what that story is going to be. And that’s fiction or nonfiction, right? Is that your experience?

Jeff Putnam  15:40

Yeah, I mean, fiction and nonfiction are very much the same in that you still have the developmental arc that your character will take. You are the character of the nonfiction, if it’s like a self-help, genre. Or the subject of, you know, if it’s a biography or whatever, still goes through a developmental arc with a rising action and a falling action, you know, being broken in half by the climax. It still happens. It’s just that that arc is present in both, whether it be fiction, nonfiction, a blog post, you’re still taking people on a journey, and that journey is self-determining, as far as the writer is concerned.

Kevin Tumlinson  16:26

Right. So you are one of the people I know, I was gonna say one of the few people, but I actually know quite a few people, who use Google Docs to do your writing. Is there a reason why you chose Google Docs?  

Jeff Putnam  16:41

It’s simple. It’s very simple. And I can sync it to my phone. You know, I have an Android. I didn’t do the iPhone thing. And I use a Chromebook. So, everything is synced. It’s easy. Yeah, I could probably sync everything with some other software on a Macbook or whatever. But, you know, if you’re drinking coffee and smoking a pipe at five o’clock in the morning, you’re gonna have to get up and go to the bathroom. It happens. So I’m not carrying my laptop from the patio, and I can put my phone in my pocket. And if I’m writing, I can get up, open up Docs, and just keep going. Finish whatever I have to do in the bathroom, then go right back to the patio and keep writing.

Kevin Tumlinson  17:35

Look at you, you keep it going, man. There’s no excuse to stop.

Jeff Putnam  17:38

You have to. Yeah. You know, my friend Adam, who I mentioned earlier, he uses Evernote. And Evernote is really cool. But it’s, there’s an adoption process with it that you have to kind of onboard yourself with. You try to get into, well you use this, and then you click your notes. And then you have this and this. Docs is easier. I can just open it up, start writing. And I can open it, I can make two separate blank documents. One for outline, one for notes. Or three, you know, and then one to actually write on. You know, I’m not good at multitasking. Multitasking is just failing at a lot of things at once. So the less steps I can take the better. So Google Docs for me.

Kevin Tumlinson  18:40

I’m noticing that I’m dropping, my video’s dropping here … For people who use or prefer Google Docs, it’s great for collaborative writing. Do you ever do anything like that? You collaborate with anybody?

Jeff Putnam  18:50

Yeah, I did a couple of things with an old business partner of mine. And I really like that I can see him writing in real time. I’ve done it with a couple of clients, because I have writing clients as well, where I can see them writing in real time and I can watch their style develop every time they’re sitting down to write. I can see how they’re improving their writing. I can see how they are working on their skill of character development and story development and flow and cadence and making sure they’re not switching between the two different tenses of third-person writing. And then I can stop and leave a note or a comment live. So yeah, it’s really good for collaborative writing, especially if it’s a group project or a multi-authored information product. It’s really easy and convenient.

Kevin Tumlinson  19:55

Yeah, I used to love using that years ago, back when the iPad, the original first iPad came out, and I used it for everything until I had like a crash or something. And then I kind of switched. But I’ve always got this like, urge to go back to Google Docs for some reason. There’s just something about it, because it’s because it is available everywhere. And because you know, it’s sort of a prolific app, basically. But I use Scrivener now. So that’s hard to turn back once you start using it.

Jeff Putnam  20:30

Scrivener was the first thing that I downloaded. And then I was like, I don’t need all these buttons. I just need something that’s equivalent to Microsoft Word without, you know, paying $190 for Microsoft Office. And Google Docs was it, man.

Kevin Tumlinson  20:52

I’m terrible. Like, I probably only use like less than 1% of the features that Scrivener has. But I like the corkboard, which appeals to me from my film and TV days. And I like being able to easily move chapters and scenes around as I need them, just dropping, drag and drop. I like that. So not that I use that particular feature a lot. But I do every now and then use it. So it’s good to know it’s there.  

Jeff Putnam  21:20

Yeah, I’m that writer that I like controlled, organized chaos. So if I was writing before we had, you know, laptops or whatever, I would probably have papers everywhere, where I’m like, okay, I wrote this saying, Now I wrote this possible scene I might plug in there. And I’m having like, taped to the walls and running along the floor. I might storyboard by just dropping the pages down the hallway in chronological order, and then walk myself physically through the story. I’m that guy.

Kevin Tumlinson  22:00

I always pictured you as having a murder board actually. I figured somewhere in a basement, you had like a big giant whiteboard with yarn stretched all over it.

Jeff Putnam  22:12

I mean, I’ve got the whiteboard, it’s over here.

Kevin Tumlinson  22:13

You’ve got the whiteboard, right?

Jeff Putnam  22:15

And I write down who’s gonna die. But I haven’t written a lot of fiction in probably the past nine months, because I had one idea for a nonfiction book that I was writing with this, like, self-righteous indignation when I wrote it. It’s kind of like The Gulag Archipelago by Alexander Solzhenitsyn. Like he wrote it with a white hot intensity, like 60 or 65 … Or no, it was like 165,000 words per chapter, but he wrote it just angry. That’s how that book was written. But it’s only like 40,000 words. Couldn’t be angry for that long.

Kevin Tumlinson  23:02

We got a question from YouTube from Jesus is my King. That’s a classy name. So, “General question, can you use D2D and ingramSpark? Just curious.” I’m guessing what they’re asking is, do you use either Draft2Digital or IngramSpark with your work?

Jeff Putnam  23:20

I have not. I’m a simple guy. If I had an old school typewriter, I would probably just use that. I’m a bit of a purist. But that’s only me, I just have my own particular method of writing

Kevin Tumlinson  23:40

We won’t hold it against you. We’re here for you. If you ever decide, we’ll help you. So yeah, the thing is, and that’s something we talk to authors about. I talk to authors about this all the time. There is the idea of an author platform, which is, that’s your audience essentially. That’s the reach that you have. So your platform can be an email list and social media and your website and that sort of thing. But also, there’s your platform. Like, where are your books available? You chose Gumroad …

Jeff Putnam  24:21

And Amazon.

Kevin Tumlinson  24:22

And Amazon. And you gave some of your reasons for Gumroad earlier, I believe, right?

Jeff Putnam  24:27

I’m sorry, say that one more time?

Kevin Tumlinson  24:28

You gave some of your reasons for choosing Gumroad over like other distribution platforms.

Jeff Putnam  24:36

It was there. And Cartra still had a whole lot of kinks to work out. You know, a lot of people migrated from Gumroad over to Cartra, and Gumroad gets a bad rap, because it’s not really well known outside of Twitter. But that is my platform, you know, 30-something thousand followers following my content there, and Gumroad is familiar to them. So that’s where they go. It would be better if I cut out a middleman and didn’t pay them fees and all this other, but you’re still gonna pay someone fees. If I’m using Stripe, like I do when I sell, you know, autographed physical copies of my books, it’s still going to be a middleman getting his cut. But Gumroad was there, it was convenient. The user interface is extremely easy. A dinosaur like me can do it. So that’s pretty much there. It’s the convenience. And it’s familiar to people on my platform,

Kevin Tumlinson  25:37

And you hit on it. And that’s what it is. Right? You’re using the sales platform that syncs best with your author platform, to just kind of swing it around to marketing language. But yeah, you’re going where your audience is, which is good. So we got some other questions and comments popping up. Let’s look at Tom Ray on YouTube. He says, “I used to have notebooks full of three ring paper written in pencil with 300 page novels. But when I went to actually try to publish, I wrote 1500 pages of the series in Google Docs, ported to Scrivener.” So wow, you went the long way around.

Jeff Putnam  26:19

Yeah. My kind of guy.

Kevin Tumlinson  26:20

Exactly. I admire writing, I used to write everything by hand, too. There’s a sort of nostalgic kind of thing that happens there. I still do a lot of, I write journal entries by hand, but I don’t do my fiction by hand.

Jeff Putnam  26:35

It has to be plain paper though. And it has to be a good stock. You can’t have lines on the journal paper. It has to be a completely blank cream paper with a leather binding. It smells incredible.

Kevin Tumlinson  26:45

Do you go out and like, you kill a deer for the skin of your book and then …

Jeff Putnam  26:54

I haven’t yet but now I’ve got something to do this fall.

Kevin Tumlinson  26:57

We’ll get you making your own journals out of your own hewn wood from your land.

Jeff Putnam  27:02

That would fit in perfectly with my entire aesthetic. That’s my brand.

Kevin Tumlinson  27:09

Aaron Delaney on YouTube says, “Jeff is one of the reasons I started writing a journal a month ago, plus his Twitter is awesome.” Some love from the outside. Here’s, Hellraizers asks, “Any advice on poetry and songwriting? Are we talking about different monsters here? By the way, great advice and life stories on Jeff’s Twitter.” So poetry and songwriting. What’s your perspective there?

Jeff Putnam  27:35

I am terrible at writing poetry. And I’ve never tried to write a song. But I’m attracted to underground music. So one of my favorite singer songwriters is this guy named Tyler Childers. There’s some language on there. So if you’re not comfortable with it, don’t. But he has this one song called White House Road. And it’s kind of what you would expect from the life of an average guy living in dirt poor West Virginia, you know, Eastern Kentucky, coal miner country. Right? And all of his songs are stories. You know, they still have the hook, you know, the chorus, but they’re all stories. They all start somewhere and end somewhere else. He has another one called Nose on the Grindstone. And it’s a story about, you know, his dad telling him, you know, stay away from the pills. Stay away from fast women. Keep your nose on the grindstone. You know, there’s another story that he tells in a song about hard times coming, where he’s just, and I don’t even think there’s a chorus to that song. He just basically sings a short story. It’s about having to work your fingers to the bone in a mine, or hopefully he’ll get a job in a mine so he can pay for this baby that’s on the way. They’re real-life stories and I’ve always been attracted to the storytellers. So if you can tell a story which will take your character on an arc. You know, who they are something happening, and who they become, where they change in that progression, you can write a song. Here’s another one right off the top of my head before I forget. It’s Colter Wall. Kate McCannon. You’ve heard that one. There is no chorus to that song at all. It’s, I worked in a coal, or I worked in a mine. I met a pretty girl, I asked her dad for her hand, I married her. You know, I saved up money from the coal mine, I married her, I came home, found her cheating. I found her down at the creek with her lover and I shot her. That’s the whole song. But it’s beautiful storytelling.

Kevin Tumlinson  30:10

Yeah. And I think that is actually good advice all around. What people forget is, no matter what the type of writing, it is always a story. I was a copywriter for decades, and that was the secret was, you’re always telling some kind of story. There’s always a twist and a hook and a beginning, middle, and end no matter whether you’re writing, you know, an article that’s 500 to 800 words, or you’re writing something that’s only 140 characters. Your goal is to tell a story. Alright, man, well, we’re kind of at the close. I want to make sure we plug all your stuff. Now you’ve got this course. It’s available on Gumroad, right?  

Jeff Putnam  30:57

Not yet. It will be tomorrow. Tomorrow when I come home from the gym, it’ll be like 5:30 in the morning Eastern Standard Time. That’s when I’m going to fire away guns blazing. I sent it to you, a whole lot of other authors. I sent it to email marketers, writing coaches, copywriters. And everyone was just, oh this is awesome. So I know it’s gonna be great for people who want to break into the writing game, who’ve just stared at the screen like we all have. And, I don’t know what to write. Or I’m stuck. Or, I don’t know what good writing is. And so now, the link, you’ve got it right there. Tomorrow morning at 5:30, it will go live, and you guys will be able to jump in there. Grab a copy. It’ll be on sale for the launch weekend. But after that, the price is going up like everything. But that’s business, right?

Kevin Tumlinson  31:55

You’ve got tons of other things that are available on that link as well.  

Jeff Putnam  32:00

Yeah, I’ve got tons of other things on there. Really old work that I should probably go back and redo because some of it is, again, terrible writing. But I won’t. Because you can compare the old to the new and you can see how far you’ve grown. And it’s just like a character, it grows and develops over time, the more things that happen to it.

Kevin Tumlinson  32:23

Yeah. And the value is still there regardless, so you’re covered. All right, well, everybody. So the link on screen, for those of you listening, it’s app.gumroad.com/jeffputnam. And I did drop that in the comments on this video on both Facebook and YouTube. So you can click through from there. Make sure you buy plenty of Jeff’s stuff, he really needs the money.  

Jeff Putnam  32:50

I have to feed these nine children.

Kevin Tumlinson  32:51

He’s got the kids, he needs to feed the kids. But yeah, man, I really appreciate you taking the time to chat with me here. And with the viewers and listeners. So thanks so much for what you’re doing to help everybody out.

Jeff Putnam  33:06

Yeah, man. Thanks for having me on. And another shameless plug, you can get both of my books Empire Divided, a modern man’s path back to his tribe, and the sequel to that book, The Perimeter. If you go to JeffPutnamauthor com, you can find it there. Or you can just look them up on Amazon and see them there.

Kevin Tumlinson  33:25

Excellent. All right, everybody. Before we go, I’m going to grab that link. And I’m going to drop that into the chat as well, just so that people watching live get the benefit of the easy click. So check that out. JeffPutnamauthor.com. And everyone else, if you’re listening, thanks for tuning in. If you want to catch on to more stuff like this one, make sure you subscribe to us on YouTube and Facebook. You can get to both our channels with a slash draft2digital on either one of those. And in fact, just go around the web putting /draft2digital after every URL and see what you get. You might find us everywhere. And be sure to bookmark D2D Live so that you can see countdowns to more content like this. We’ve actually got another live broadcast. Now, you people listening, this will have already happened for you, but we got another live broadcast happening tomorrow at noon Central. So tune in for that and ask me and the rest of the D2D crew all kinds of questions about publishing, and we’ll be happy to take care of you. So, Jeff, thanks again for being a part of the show. And for everyone else, we will see you all next time. Take care.